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you’re listening to of Sights and Men with Benji and Jacob.
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Daily Magician Production
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Alright, what’s up everyone, welcome back to Offsights and Men. My name is Benji, Benji from The Daily Magician. It’s been a while since I’ve recorded one of these intros, but I am so excited to be back, back in England. We’re so excited to talk about what we’re going to talk about today. It’s mainly going to be about this witch hand routine, witch hand challenge, seven day challenge we’ve been doing. But before we get into that, just a quick little by way of announcement, the reason we’ve been doing this and the reason we’re so excited for this is because I actually just got back about…
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now two weeks ago from living out in Eastern Europe, a country called Macedonia. And while I was gone, it was very hard for me and Jacob to make this kind of content, to be together in person, to do these kind of challenges, to make these kind of products. And now that I’m back, it’s been a long time coming, it’s been a long time since I’ve been on this podcast as well. But now that we’re here together, we are just ready to get rolling with what we think hopefully will be some of the best content in Magic.
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I know that’s a big claim and maybe we will see, maybe it will not turn out to be the best content in Magic, but we’re sure going to give it everything we got. Yeah, like Benji said, if you haven’t kind of heard already, we are back together in person finally, and we’re going to be starting to create some YouTube based content. Basically, what it’s going to look like is kind of like, I’m not…
01:54
It’s kind of like a buzzword, like Mr. Beast-esque. Because that’s what everyone is trying to do on YouTube. That’s crazy, that’s a word now. Jeez, bro. Yeah. And I… That’s so impressive, Jesus. I also… Bill, his brand is to the point that you can say Mr. Beast-esque and I know what that means. True. Can you imagine 20 years ago, it’s like, hey, Jacob, what are you doing? You know, your mum’s like, oh, what are you going to do today? And you’re like, I’m going to create some Mr. Beast-esque content. That’s so crazy that it’s just like in the vocabulary. Sure, yeah, sure.
02:24
Uh, yeah. So, yeah, not to get too excited, like we’re not gonna be like buying like a private island and like putting David Blaine and Darren Brown on it to fight each other. As cool as that would be. I’m writing it down. I’m writing it down right now. Write that down. Yeah. Last to uh, first person to fool the other person like gets like, I don’t know, like a piece of weaponry or maybe like so you know.
02:53
It’s like the Hunger Games. There’s like 20 magicians on an island and it’s like, once you fool someone, that person that you fooled is like out and you stay in. So it’s like, it’s like the last person. Oh that is kinda cool. The one who like fools all the others is like the last man standing. I’m fresh. That actually would be good. Maybe we should make that. For real, write that one down. Okay, yeah, give me two secs. But yeah, um, yeah, that’s the sort of content that we’re gonna be, uh…
03:23
not creating but we are going to try to create something that’s like like it that is hopefully going to be like some of just like the best content for magicians out there and so just to give you guys a little bit of like a teaser some of the things that are coming up we talked and by the way just these might happen they might not happen but a few things we talked about is like going to see like every vegas every magic show in vegas um maybe like we bought every single
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Hans Moretti sword box on the market. Here’s which one like played best on stage. That was really specific. I thought you were going to say like every single triumph routine. Oh yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know why Hans Moretti sword box was in my mind. So strongly there, but there we go. Yeah. But yeah, starting with the video that we’re actually
04:17
in the process of filming right now, or in the process of practicing right now. In fact, we’re taking time out of our practice right now to record this podcast, which I guess, let’s make sure, you know, like we’re talking a lot about which hand so that it counts as practice. But yeah, basically, we’ve been obsessed with the which hand routine since we were like really young. I think it’s just like one of those. I think it’s particularly satisfying because when you perform it on another magician and you keep guessing like which hand…
04:46
Well, I guess maybe we should talk about what is the Witch Hand routine. Maybe Benji, you could give us a quick summary. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So the Witch Hand routine is a really, really nice routine. Because it’s so simple. It’s exactly what it sounds like. Generally speaking, this is how it goes. Spectator, you know, you give the spectator a coin, and you say, hey, we’re gonna play a little game. Take your take that coin, put your hands behind your back. You are free to put the coin in whichever hand you may desire.
05:15
Just make sure you don’t give me any indication. And then when you bring your hands out, I’m gonna try and guess which hand the coin is in. And as you may have deduced, if you are particularly… What’s the word? Oh my gosh, bro, my brain died. If you’re into maths, if you’re into maths, you have deduced that it’s a 50-50 chance. Sorry, that was a stupid buildup. Wow, I’m really glad we waited for that one.
05:44
Yeah, so it’s a 50-50 chance, right? It’s like… It’s very simple. Okay, well, maybe it was a guess. So then you do the routine again, and it’s like, okay, we’ll do it one more time, you know, there was a 50-50, maybe it was a fluke, and you guess again. And, you know, so on and so forth. And it’s just, the reason I think the Witch Hand routine is so… so fun is just, it’s such a simple idea, you know? I feel like a lot of the time, the simplest tricks are the most powerful. It’s like, here’s a deck of cards, it’s like, I’m gonna pick a card, you’re gonna tell me what the card is. Absolutely one of the most simple card tricks.
06:13
They pick a card, you tell them what the card is. But there’s a reason that it’s so powerful. It’s just, it’s just right, like, to the point, you know? It’s like, I have an object. I put it in one hand. You don’t know which hand is it in. Tell me which hand it’s in. And it’s so simple. And, you know, because you have routines that are like, okay, everyone, I want you to think of four different breeds of dog, now narrow it down to one dog.
06:41
Now think of a friend who owns that dog, now think of that friend’s middle name, think of one letter of that middle name, write down that letter, put it in your pocket, is the letter F. And they’re like, go away, that’s crazy. And that’s cool, like I think those, I think those routines are like awesome, don’t get me wrong. But there’s something that’s just so elegantly simple about you give them a coin and you say, here.
07:11
Put this in any hand you like, and I am going to tell you what hand it’s in, and I’m going to be right every single time. There’s the challenge. Yeah, I think that’s what, that’s what, that’s the thing that’s really cool about it, is like, you are going to be right 100% of the time. And like, if you’re not right, then like, there’s something else, like there’s some sort of, there’s some sort of reason that you weren’t correct. There’s also, I guess the Witch Hammer chain is, to elaborate a little bit more, there is, I guess it’s like different variations of it. There’s a variation where obviously you’re guessing…
07:38
like where the coin is in their hand, there’s a variation where they’re guessing where the coin is in your hand. There’s variations where they’re gonna make a certain amount of guesses and you’re gonna say how many times they’re gonna be right or wrong. But overall, like the main concept is you or them have something in your hand and you’re gonna guess in a way that is like statistically impossible where that object is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s like, yeah. That’s the fundamental.
08:07
basics of it and then like you said there’s a lot of different ways you can play around with that a lot of different presentations because there’s a lot of which are just like one phase like I personally like more phases but there are ones that are literally just like put it in mix it around oh it’s in that hand like for instance like yeah like quarterly report right where it’s like they they look at the coin and it says oh like there’s a piece of paper there’s like a little piece of paper on the back of the coin that says like it was in your right hand and they’re holding it in their right hand so it can just be one phase
08:36
and still be a Witch Hand Routine. That’s true. It can just be one phase. I think, yeah, there’s like a slight presentational difference between Witch Hand Routines that are multi-phase and Witch Hand Routines that are one phase, and I think multi-phase routines draw their strength from the fact that you’re getting it right multiple times. Duh, obviously. I can explain in more detail why I’m making this distinction.
08:59
because it’s a 50-50 chance, but if you just keep repeating it and you keep getting it right, it just becomes increasingly mind-boggling. It’s like, how do they know? How do they know? Again, once was like, maybe. Twice was like, oh, okay, that’s cool, but maybe. And then three, four times, it’s like, there’s just no way. There’s no way they could know. How do they know this? There’s no way they should be upset. Whereas a one-phase routine, I think it all hinges around the amount of confidence the performer has in his ability. The stakes. And the stakes, right? So it’s like…
09:29
Okay, I have a hundred dollar bill. You’re going to take the hundred dollar bill and you’re going to put it in whichever hand you want. Then you’re going to bring out your hands. If I correct the guess which hand the bill is in, I keep the money. If I’m wrong, and if you outsmart me, like you get the money. Right? And at that point, it’s only a one phase routine. But because you put, because you make the stakes so high, I think you can afford to make it one stage because it’s like, they know.
09:56
because that still plays with their mind, right? Because they know it’s not, you’re not just leaving out the odds, right? Because if you did that, you would be losing a lot of money because you’re performing this so often. Like, it’s just not, it makes it clear that you as the performer, you actually, you’re not just guessing. Like you do know which hand they put it in, otherwise you would not be putting so much money in it. And then it just becomes so like, frustratingly like, oh my gosh, but it’s a 50-50. Like, how does he know? I could just put it in this hand, if I just put it in the other hand. I think that’s the best line you can get when you’re doing a witch hand.
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but if I just put it in the other hand, and it’s that frustration, because again, because it’s so simple, the fact that there’s so few choices makes it so frustrating, it’s like, oh gosh, if I just put it in the other hand, I would have given the money. So yeah, I think one-face routines can also be incredibly strong, as long as the stakes are high. Yeah, exactly. And I guess, coming all the way back to why we’re even describing the witch hand routine in the first place, I think we talked about it a little bit, but obviously, like, this YouTube video that we’re making right now,
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finding every single which hand routine we can on the market, learning them in seven days, and then performing them for each other to see which one is the most fooling. And hopefully in the meantime, coming up with our own original which hand routines as well. Is that pretty well summarized? Yeah, I’d say that’s a pretty good summary. Basically we figured like, just to kind of zoom out a little bit before we get too lost in the source. I think we figured that
11:24
In terms of recording this podcast, we could either come back and sit down and be like, okay, here, let’s talk about some of the plans going forward. Let’s talk about how excited we are now that we’re back in the same country. Now we can do all this cool stuff. Let’s maybe talk about some cool ideas, talk about directions going forward, all this, all this, all this. And in the end, it just kind of felt a little bit too… What’s the word? Like self-congratulatory. Like, we haven’t actually made anything yet, and we were already starting to be like, oh, this is going to be so cool.
11:52
So really what we wanted to do is we just wanted to drop in, in the middle of something we’re actually doing that’s actually real, that you’re actually gonna see. Even if this is the only YouTube video we ever make, like, it exists, you know, it’s out there. And so we just actually wanted to get into the details, give you guys something that would actually be interesting and of benefit to you. Did I answer the question? I feel like I kind of lost what the original question was. Yeah, just like, that’s a good summary of kind of like…
12:19
What we would do. The challenge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think the key phrase in the challenge was like, we learn every Witch Hand Routine we can find. Sadly, and this is genuinely sad, like this is actually sad, sadly, a number of the, I don’t know, highly recommended, that was a weird noise, highly recommended Witch Hand Routines are no longer available.
12:47
everywhere we looked they seemed to be out of stock, which is kind of sad. There was definitely a couple of classics that unfortunately just will not be included in this video because they were out of stock everywhere we looked, but we appreciate people kind of reaching out and suggesting them all the same. I think one of the big ones was Goat T Reborn. That one seemed to get a lot of like acclaim, however it seems to be out of stock everywhere. So that’s too bad. But with the exception of that…
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of thing where these routines are like out of stock or unavailable. Yeah, if we could find a good witch hunt routine we pull it and we launch it.
13:26
And honestly, it has been like super fun. Like obviously part of like this content creation, that’s like just a big bonus for us is we get to actually like practice and learn magic and then like make it into a video, which is just super fun. Like I’ve been obsessed with the witch I’m using for a long time. And once you learn like all of them, and it’ll be cool as well coming together and like explaining the methods and kind of doing a recap of which ones we think are the best in the end. But you start to learn like a lot of like the key principles that hold
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most witch hand routines together. And that’s just so beneficial. It’s like, it’s one of those where it’s like, honestly, some of these routines are like, really not that good. Like, in my opinion, like, I personally wouldn’t have bought them when there’s better things on offer. But it’s honestly kind of like a cool thing to do, like learning the worst to the best methods, because like you find the common threads and that allows you to kind of build upon and create your own.
14:23
variations on them. I guess it’s interesting because it’s just like it’s one of those things that you just wouldn’t like think to do you know what I mean it’s like you wouldn’t think like oh like how am I gonna like master the witch hand routine like oh I’m gonna like go buy all of them even the trash ones learn all of it and then like come back in you know because you’d think like oh yeah yeah you know what I’m saying I think in for the purposes of just like absolute transparency
14:53
us taking these kind of ideas and running with them, generally ticks free boxes. And we believe that these free boxes that get ticked are good for us and they’re good for you and they’re just good for Magic in general. So it’s kind of one of those win-win-win situations. Basically, box number one, it’s fun to create and it’s fun to watch. Well, I can vouch for the first one, it is fun to create.
15:19
I guess you guys will have to wait and see on the second one. I hope it’s fun to watch. I think it’s the kind of content I would enjoy watching. We basically just become your guys’s magic guinea pigs and anything, you know, I think I would always have enjoyed watching this kind of content. So I’m excited to put it out. So that’s that’s one box. Another box is over here. We have our areas of expertise. If you guys are
15:44
If you guys maybe happen to be on our email list or paying customers of ours, then I don’t need to get too much into the details, but you know we have certain areas that we’d like to focus on a lot. And I would say we have some level of expertise in those areas. But Magic is such a wide market, like it’s just so big and there’s so many different aspects of it that I am just like… I am like nowhere near… I don’t know nearly as much as I wish I knew about… Pretty much every…
16:12
every type of magic there is apart from these one or two things that we specialize in. And so this also becomes a chance to basically level up our magic game in a way that will also create engaging useful content for our audience. So that’s the second box, is that we’re going to become a lot better magicians by doing this, which is always a good thing. And I guess the third box is also…
16:41
We will see, but I think most of these projects we’re going to be working on will tie into either a product that we have created, a product that we create during the course of the challenge, or a product from one of our people that we work with that, again, we can kind of just promote. And I think there will be a natural tie in on a lot of these to something that we may like push or promote. And again, that would be, that’d be good for us because, you know, we are a company and so we…
17:11
want to make sales at the end of the day. And, but we know that the way that we’re going to make more sales is by creating better content and better products and us being better magicians. And so I think this approach, I hope it ticks all those boxes. Again, we’ll see. Maybe it will fall on its face. But yeah. Yeah. I think we’re going to give it a good shot. We’ll definitely, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll give it its time. Maybe the first one will fall, but hopefully we’ll get there in the end. Right, right.
17:40
But yeah, it’s kind of interesting when you talk about that because it kind of reminded me of like, I don’t know, there’s like, it’s always nice when you can kind of line things up in a way that like one task accomplishes like three ends, like, and it kind of reminded me of like a lot of what people have said like, like, a lot of like working magicians talk about the fact that like for a while they would like, I mean, like three years or whatever, they’d like perform every day in like a bar, and like be like a walk around magician.
18:09
And that’s kind of one of those things as well that kind of hits like three boxes. Like one, you’re getting paid for magic, which is amazing. Like two, you’re going to have to practice because you’re going to be like performing every day and like three, you’re going to learn like very quickly what hits, what doesn’t hit, like what you like to perform, what audiences react well to, you know what I mean? It’s like, I feel like for us, we’re kind of creating our own almost like walk around like type experience.
18:36
So that we’re like forced to learn, forced to perform, and forced to like show it to people as well, as we will be like with obviously with our audience. So I don’t know, I think in magic, like, really when it comes down to it, is like you just have to like force yourself, like a lot of the time it’s like just like forcing yourself to be in positions where you have to practice and perform. And that’s like where you like just get better, because like at the end of the day, like.
19:02
I don’t know, doing slides in your bedroom can only go so far when like magic as an artist, like that is like a performance art, if you know what I mean. Yeah, okay, here’s an interesting, no, I like that, that’s facts. But here’s something that kind of prompted me to think about, interesting little take. I think it’s a little bit controversial, but I don’t, bro, for the life of me, I don’t remember where I heard this. So yeah, I’m sorry about that. But if anyone does let us know, we will give credit.
19:32
I remember reading this once and I loved it. And it was this idea that magic doesn’t exist. Oh gosh, what was it? It’s like magic only exists when there’s two people present, right? Cause when you think about it, like what is a magic trick? What is magic? Well, it’s that feeling that’s created in the mind of the viewer as a reaction to whatever you have done. And so I think magic is like an interest in art in that regard because I think, I don’t know, say I’m a…
20:01
musician right I can sit in my room and I can like play music and regardless of whatever not there’s anyone listening like music is happening because music is kind of just like sound right but when we talk about magic one way to think about it is magic is the feeling that is created upon the misperception of reality and so you need two parties present in order for that to happen because you as a magician obviously are not going to be misperceiving because you know what’s going on you’re the person like laying the groundwork for that misperception to arise and so
20:31
Like, if you’re doing Slight in Your Room, are you even doing magic, is the question. Because magic, one, could argue, requires two people to be present. Yeah. Yeah, it’s an interesting… I don’t know, I don’t know. Like I feel like… If a tree falls in a forest, but nobody’s around to hear it, does it make a sound kind of vibe? Yeah, bro. If a magician shuffles a deck, but nobody’s there to hear it, was it magic?
20:57
Yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s a fun idea. I think it’s like a fun concept to play with and it’s kind of like cool to talk about. But at the end of the day, like, it’s not that deep. Don’t like, I don’t want to be that guy who’s like, well, you know, magic actually is a phenomena that, oh gosh, phenomena that only exists in the mind of the viewer. Therefore, if you are in your room, you are like, it’s not that deep. You’re doing card tricks. Shut up.
21:24
Yeah, the main thing I think is just to push you to like get out there and like perform, right? Like just to like take your art and share it with other people. That’s like the main thing that like I feel like is the point of this. It’s like if you put yourself in situations where you are forced to practice and perform, like you just will over time get better as long as you’re open to obviously like feedback and stuff. Like, because if what you’re performing is terrible, but you’re not open to feedback, then obviously you’re not going to improve. Yeah. But yeah.
21:54
Most of the time I think that’s definitely a truism. Yeah, no, that’s facts. Man, yeah, good stuff, good discussion. I constantly find myself trying to walk this line between my inner huge magic nerd wanting to come out and then my outer normal Benji trying to be squashing it down. Like, no, don’t let them see how weird you are. So yeah, that’s funny. I guess that just happened live.
22:23
It’s funny because you think you’re not a super geeky magician. And then I remember I was at a dinner party and someone was like, so what is magic? And then I just started going off on the most useless speech about why magic is an art. And all of this stuff and I was like, oh no, it’s happened. I didn’t think it would happen but it’s happened to me. It happened. Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing.
22:51
is uh I’m still finding my voice there I don’t know I don’t know like do we lean into it do we do we do we like rein it back do we kind of like just be ourselves so we can’t be yourself just gotta be yourself yeah classic classic actually I was thinking this kind of is like maybe a perfect segue for you to talk a little bit about um kind of that rule you had for yourself while you’re in Macedonia of performing and maybe some of the stories that you had during that time yeah yeah
23:15
So yeah, we’ll get back into Witchend because we have some more notes on that that we want to talk about, but I think yeah, that’s a great segue actually. Yeah, so while I was in Macedonia, I spent a lot, well, most of my time I spent volunteering, right? And so I was always very pressed for time, and so I would always find myself wishing I had more opportunity and more time to perform magic. And yeah. And so I basically just came up with a simple rule for myself, which was that
23:45
If anybody ever asked me to do a magic trick, I would do it. No questions asked.
23:55
I think that was a good road to come up with because my natural inclination when somebody asks me to do a magic trick is to be like, no, I don’t, I really, no, I’m, I’m okay, no, I don’t, I’m good, I’ll be over, I’ll be, well, see you next week, okay, right? That’s kind of my natural inclination is, again, it’s like a weird, it’s this like weird irony where I spend, I’ve spent so many years of my life and so many hours dedicated to this art and yet I like almost like…
24:24
don’t like it when people find out that I’m a magician because I don’t want to show them magic. It’s like this weird little contradiction where I’m like, I dedicate so much of myself to magic, but at the same time, someone asked me to like show them a card trick and I’m like, bro, can we just be like normal fran- like, I don’t need to be the magic guy that like always does the magic trick for you like when Rap-Hawaii, like, can we just be like friends? Like, I promise I’m like normal, you know? Um. But, but, I think.
24:53
At a certain point I realized I’m not normal. And you know what? It’s okay. Magic is cool. This is turning into like a Disney movie. Magic is cool. Are you gonna start singing? Yeah, no. Oh gosh, no, no, don’t actually. I was thinking about it. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, but then you know what? At a certain point I was like, you know what? I’m…
25:23
I’m an adult, like, I’ve made these life choices. Like, I like magic. Like, why do I not want to fall in? Like, magic is cool. Like, there’s a reason I like magic. Like, I’m not stupid, right? And so, you were supposed to say yes.
25:43
Well, sorry, I guess I missed my cue. Okay, we edit this part out. We edit this part out. Yes, at a certain point I was like, you know what? No, like, I like magic. I like performing magic. I think we often as magicians vastly underestimate how cool it is for people to watch magic because it becomes kind of such a meme, especially like even we have been joking about it today, but like it kind of can seem like a meme like, oh, can I show you a card trick?
26:12
But when you’re on the receiving end of like a genuine, what feels like a genuine display of like impossibility, we often underestimate and forget how special that moment is for other people, right? If you think back to like, the times that you were fooled the hardest, I can think of like four or five times off the top of my head right now. And I think back to how that made me feel and how much I like valued that memory and how special that moment was,
26:42
It’s up there, it’s a great memory. And so the fact now that you as a magician have the ability to at will create those memories in everyone you meet, that’s insane. You’re literally like Father Christmas, but it’s Christmas all year and you’re giving out gifts, you can give out gifts anytime. And so I realized kind of like my, that I was just kind of being stupid and that.
27:10
Yeah, I was thinking about it too much and I was overthinking it and I was really caring too much what people thought of me and I was like, you know what, no, this is really cool. I think this is actually a cool thing. And so I just made this little rule that was like, whenever somebody asked me to perform, no questions asked, I would perform. And so that led to some performances that I was not very much ready for, as you can imagine. But on the whole…
27:38
It was just an awesome experience and it meant that I was able to… Actually I realized I was able to perform a lot more than I had previously because when you perform at every single request you certainly find yourself performing a lot because you’re meeting a lot of people and you’re introducing yourself to a lot of people and one of the questions people always ask you is what do you do for a living? To which I respond… Well I sell card tricks, I sell magic tricks on the internet.
28:06
And it always gets a laugh and then they’re like… People always love it, they love us. Yeah, it always gets a laugh and then people are like, Wait, you’re serious? And I’m like, yeah, I sell magic tricks on the internet. I’m like, you sell magic tricks on the internet? And I’m like, yes, I sell the tricks that are magic on the net that is inter… I don’t know, the internet. Wow, you have a geek in…
28:35
You’re kind of a geek in real life, huh? Was that not? Did we not just- Is that what you just said? Bro, I’m trying too- I’m sorry bro, I’m trying too hard. I haven’t done a podcast in a while, I’m trying to be like What are people like? Why do they listen to us again? Like, why do people care? Why do they listen to us? Are you like Michael Scott or something? I don’t understand. You just said the net that is inter, unironically. I think there was some irony in that. Give me credit. Okay, fair enough.
29:05
Sorry, Michael. Yeah, bro. I sometimes, like, as we’re recording these, I’m like, why do people listen to us again? Like, we, like, I don’t know. Like, why are you guys listening? And I’m like, I gotta make sure I, like, throw in enough things that entertain in every, like, two minutes. But then I’m like, at the same time, I’m a magician, not a comedian, and I’m not even that good of a magician, so for me to even try to be a comedian, it’s like such a bad idea, really, when you think about it.
29:34
Yeah. So, you know what? Sorry for everyone listening. I guess we’ll, uh, lean in on our strengths, which is talking about weird niche magic topics. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just on the whole, it was a good rule. I recommend you guys, if you feel like you’re not performing as much, if you want to get more practice in, or if you want to overcome your nerves, your fear of performing, then just, just, just do it. It’s a…
30:02
I guess it’s kind of similar in principle to the whole idea of like, well, yeah, you know, if you see like some cute girl, then like, don’t even just be like, okay, you got five seconds to go talk to her. And like, that is your rule, right? Like, I don’t know where that’s like, is that in that film, that one film about the zoo, we bought a zoo? You seen that film? Yeah. Yeah. Where he’s like, all you need is 20 seconds of insane courage. And it’s just like a simple
30:27
So it’s like the same with the performance thing, all you need is like five seconds to be like, ah what the heck, yeah I’ll perform. And then once you’ve said yes out loud, you know, you’re gonna do it. And I feel like over time it really helps with the whole nerves and like not wanting to perform in front of people because you don’t, it’s not even like a question in your mind, you just know that you’re going to. So it’s like your brain almost like gives up and it’s like, it’s like why even bother creating all this like nervous anxiety when it’s like, it knows it’s not going to win the argument because you are going to perform. So at that point it’s like, I guess my energy is better spent like, to my useful.
30:58
So it’s a cool little principle, I think. I briefly interrupt this podcast to just share a little self-promotion with you, if I could. If you’re enjoying what you’re listening to right now, and you think that maybe you’d enjoy more of our content, please head over to thedailymagician.com. There you’ll find 24 classic magic books for free, and you’ll be signed up for our daily emails where you can hear and get more content just like this.
31:28
Thank you very much for listening, hope you enjoyed so far. And like I said, that’s thedailymagician.com slash books, claim 24 class of magic books for free, and you’ll also be getting daily contact from us with more incredible content just like this. No, I think so too, and I think it’s like, it’s just an interesting one to like, yeah, just get your head around like, yeah, like why I have to share is cool. Like I don’t know. I was kind of thinking about this while you were talking. I was like…
31:57
if you talked to someone that does BMX, if you listen to a BMX podcast, you probably would find it weird and really boring. Because they’d be talking about really deep level stuff that I really don’t care about. But when I go and watch a BMX show, I’m like, wow, this is the coolest freaking thing in the world. And so I’m not saying I’m not trying to compare myself to a BMX star or something. I’m just saying…
32:25
anything that you take into like extreme detail, excruciating detail, it’s gonna start feeling like boring and not cool. But in reality, like, I don’t know, however you present something to your spectators, or to people around you, is how they will interpret it too. So if you just present magic as being a really cool thing that you like to do, and like something that you love to share, then that’s how they’ll take it too, you know? There’s no like need to like worry about them like freaking out about the fact that, I don’t know.
32:54
Oh my gosh, like, do they even know like, how much of like, Diverne and I’ve read? Like, they don’t care. Like, you know what I mean? It’s like, so just just get on, do the trick performance, like, present it in the best way you can. And then come to podcasts like this for your little like, geeky niche session, when you want to actually get into kind of like the community of magic. Because that’s not that doesn’t represent the performance itself. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s a good point. Like, I think.
33:23
As the performer you sometimes, again, forget how much influence you have over the audience in terms of… it’s kind of like we all know the principle of misdirection, it’s like where you lurk, they lurk, so it’s like if I lurk here and I genuinely like, I genuinely look there I don’t just like flick my eyes out, you know, I turn my body there, I focus there, they are also gonna look there. It’s the same thing, like if you are actually excited to perform this, they’re gonna be excited to watch it.
33:50
if you are happy while performing it, they will be probably more likely to be happy while they’re watching it. So yeah, I think we all kind of know that in terms of like physical misdirection and like, where you look, they look, but I guess sometimes we don’t think about that in terms of the whole emotional, emotions, jazz, like, if you’re hyped about it, and if you think it’s cool, you will think it’s cool too. Just like, I don’t know, if you met someone, if like one of your best friends was like a breakdancer.
34:18
like it’s still not going to get boring to like see them do a backflip. I don’t know, like I am that annoying person where like as soon as you know someone can do a backflip, you want to see them do it. Like magic is kind of the same. It’s like you’re a magician, like do the role, you know, like say, I don’t know, you know, it’s like, it’s fine. Like it’s not like that’s honestly, yeah, I used to think about it in those terms and I used to almost like use that as an excuse not to do magic at more opportunities. Cause it was always like, you know, like again, like if somebody was this great BMXer or like let’s
34:48
there’s a guy who’s really good at running marathons, and you meet someone and you’re like, hey, what do you do? What do you do for fun? What are your hobbies? What do you do for work? And they’re like, oh, you know, I run marathons. You know, you wouldn’t expect someone to be like, oh, well, that’s cool. Show me a marathon. And then they, like, nobody does that. You can’t do that. And in the beginning, I would sometimes use that as like a mental excuse to not perform magic. So I was like, well, you know, if you wouldn’t ask a marathon runner to run a marathon, then maybe like you shouldn’t also be asking me to like do this magic trick.
35:18
And then I realized it’s actually like the exact opposite. And I think, again, it’s just really shows how lucky you are as a magician, that your passion is something that you can display in 20 seconds, in a minute, two minutes, with nothing but a deck of cards. Like your life’s, well, maybe not your life’s look, that’s a little bit of an over-exaggeration, but.
35:43
But an art form that you’ve given a lot… For some people. No, for sure, for some people. Yeah, let’s be fair then. For a lot of people, a good number of people, their lives, like passion and art, that they pour hours and hours of work into, is… It’s honestly just so… We’re so lucky that we can just pull out deck of cards and display that within a minute. That’s a privilege we have that these, like, a marathon runner can’t just drop his…
36:11
I don’t know, can’t just drop his drink at the bar and run a marathon around the bar and then be people like, oh yeah, that’s cool, huh, thanks for sharing. But you can do that with magic. So again, it’s just one more reason, it’s like, because you have that, like, with great power comes greater responsibility, because you have that power, you have that privilege, it’s like, who are we to then not do our part and not actually carry that out, like, take advantage of that opportunity.
36:41
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we’ve said enough. We didn’t mean to go off on that whole little side tangent, but on that note of something you can perform at a moment’s notice, let’s do the witch hunt again real quick. And I guess we’ll do that, and then I guess we’ll probably try and finish up so that it’s not super long. Yeah, so I guess we’ve already talked about it quite a lot, but maybe do you want to get into some more of the specific…
37:06
some more deeper specifics or anything in particular that you wanted to bring up with it? Yeah, I got a couple notes there. So we can just go through these notes. I first of all wanted to ask if you have any cool performance stories. And this can be either times that you’ve performed it, times that it has been performed on you, times you’ve seen a show it’s been performed or someone in person has done it to you, that person may or may not be me.
37:34
Yeah, yeah, go run with that. Well, first, I guess most recent story, it was kind of fun. I’ve been practicing a lot. There’s one witch hand routine that I’m doing this like very slight heavy from Bobo’s. And I was just like showing my wife like, Oh, like, what do you think of this move? And she and I was like, like, which hand is it in? And she’s like, Oh, like, that was such an obvious move. Like, obviously, it’s in that one. Like, she taps it, I like open my hand and it’s empty.
38:03
That was very satisfying. That’s a very satisfying, like, recent story. Where it’s just like, it’s just a fun, I don’t know, it’s just a really fun routine, because it’s such a, like, one-on-one experience with the spectator and you, you know, it’s like, there’s a 50-50 chance, like, and it just, I really like how a lot of the routines bring in this, like, competitive nature of it. I think it’s just fun. Like, I think it’s a very enjoyable routine, because every time
38:33
every time you put your hands up, the spectator genuinely feels like this time, like they’re going to get it, you know, like this time, like they’re going to get it right. And I think that’s just so fun. Like, for instance, like when you were performing on me, we kind of alluded to it that you performed this on me quite a lot. This is kind of like, and also this is another one that you, I remember you even like tried to do it with like Aaron Fisher and stuff, right? Like this was kind of like your go-to for like a long time. But yeah, like when we were doing it together. Yeah.
39:03
Yeah. Yeah. Kind of goes to show how little else I had in the locker at the time. This was my big one, the witch hand. Yeah. That’s all I had. I mean, it’s just a fun one, right? Because it’s not like… I don’t know, a lot of the time it doesn’t require really intensive slides. It’s just like a very mental trick and it’s also very fun, I think, as well, if you can bring in… Like, it’s fun for an audience as well.
39:32
because they like seeing the battle between the magician and the spectator and a lot of the time they’re privy to knowledge that the spectator isn’t, or the audience member isn’t, and that can also add a fun factor. So I think I’ve gone a little bit too much over on this. I’ve kind of gone into more talking about the witch hand routine, but yeah, in terms of fun performance stories, obviously Darren Browns is amazing. He used to open his show with a witch hand routine.
40:00
powerful it is. I love seeing him do it on stage. Obviously, well, I mean, he gets it wrong, but you know by the end of the show that that was on purpose. But yeah, there’s a lot of, yeah, it’s not to be underestimated. If Darren Brown can open a show with a witch hand routine, like, it’s a good routine. And I think he doesn’t get you to, doesn’t he get the audience to like play along as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, he like, it’s, yeah, it’s a variation where I like…
40:30
the audience, you know, it’s like hands up if you think it’s in this one, hands up if you think it’s in this one, blah blah blah, like elimination, so on and so forth. Yeah, it’s a really fun opener. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I’m trying to think if I now have any funny or just like interesting stories, Witch Hand. Well, something that occurred to me while you were talking, I think another reason that Witch Hand is so like attractive as a trick or it’s so has so much.
41:02
Another reason that the trick is disproportionately powerful is one way you could say it, where when you think about it, it really shouldn’t be that big of a deal, you’re just guessing which hand it’s in, it’s 50-50 each time. But I think it plays on this thing where… Tell me Jacob, what is the single most common line after you do a magic trick? What does everyone always say?
41:25
Don’t think about it.
41:29
I know how it was done, or like I’ve seen that before. I mean, that’s gonna be bad. No, no, like a question. Like what do they ask you? Oh gosh, I don’t feel like I’m in an exam and I’m failing. You’re gonna kick yourself. How did you do that? Well, I guess, like statistically speaking, you may be correct on that one, I may be wrong. I was just thinking like, can you do that again? Oh, okay, okay. Yeah.
41:56
Oh gosh, I was delving into all my magic theory like, Oh gosh, they shouldn’t say that if you did the trick well! Oh no. No, no, no, I was just like, Yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to make that into a little test, but basically- What test, I think? I failed with flying colors. Well, you know, the problem is… Yeah, I know. Yeah, sorry, you failed. But, as I was saying-
42:27
When you do most magic tricks, the most common response is, can you do that again? And 99% of the time, as a magician, you can’t do it again. That’s just the best practice, right? It’s like, you just don’t do the same trick twice. Everyone knows that. You never do the same trick twice. But the thing about the witch hand routine is that’s the whole point, is that you do it again. And again. And again. And again.
42:55
And it’s like one of the only routines where you can do it again, and the more you do it, the more powerful it gets. So I like that. I like that it plays in that common reaction to magic, which is like, do it again. But like, that’s built into the effect. It wouldn’t even work without that being a unspoken request.
43:25
that many times you know I mean yeah because like it feels like so fair because it feels like a 50-50 every time like the tension is held you know what I mean it’s like the tension is maintained because like they’re so unaware of like so many of these methods like it literally doesn’t matter which hand like they pick of yours or like you’re always gonna know which hand they have it in but like it feels every time
43:51
like there’s a really strong chance that you did that, they’re gonna get it right or you’re gonna get it wrong. And I think that also plays very well for the spectator. Yeah, yeah. It’s that thing where you talked about where it’s like, if I just pick the other hand, cause you know in their head they’re gonna deliberate and they’re gonna think, okay, maybe left or right. Okay, let’s do left. No, no, no, let’s do right. And then when you say it’s in your right hand, they think, oh gosh, I was right. I should have gone to left. I would have caught him out. Okay, this time, this time I’ll get him. Like, let’s do it again. Yeah. Exactly.
44:21
Yes, I know that’s good stuff. I mean, I think we… there’s a lot more we could talk about for the whole… For the purpose of this challenge, we’re actually going to intentionally not talk about some things we could talk about because we want to have this moment where we, at the end of the challenge, kind of like perform these for each other and see if we can fool each other with them. So we don’t want to go too deep into like what they’re going to look like or any kind of potential methods, just so we can like make sure they have the highest possible chance of working on each other.
44:50
But I think maybe one thing we can talk about without giving too much away is our thoughts on
45:01
Basically, the Witch Hand routine, I don’t think it’s a big secret to say there are ways to do this that don’t require any kind of gimmick or equipment, and there are ways to do it that do require gimmicks or equipment. And I think some magicians, myself probably included, right? When they first think about it, they tend to be kind of like, purist about it, and I tend to always prefer like…
45:29
I just would rather do a non-gaming version, because I’m like, it’s cooler that way, you know? Like, it’s more impressive, like the method’s cleverer, like… It’s… It takes more skill. But at the end of the day, like, if the effect is the same… Do you think it makes a difference? That’s my question to you. I think… I personally think it makes a difference, but only… For this reason. I think…
45:59
method layering as a concept is just always a good idea. And what I mean by that is like, and maybe it isn’t even called method layering, but we’re like, where you basically, you know, it’s like, at first, you’re going to do it. But you’re looking at their eyes, then after that, like, you’re going to do it blindfolded, then after that, they’re not even going to have an object in their hands. I think that escalation is very, very cool. And I say that because like, having you do that on me, like a lot of things we do a lot of time, it’s like,
46:28
I know you would use one type of method for like most of the routine, but then you would say, okay, like, there’s no object in your hands, right? You have that idea of like, okay, well, maybe it’s gimmicked. Now let’s do it, you know? And I think that’s where these kind of like wordplay without getting too much into method type ways of doing it. And they’re not all wordplay as well. That isn’t the only gimmick. They’re not all wordplay. They’re not. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, you can also just do it. Like that’s not giving too much away. Like
46:55
If you just go look at the Chris Ramsey video on the Witch Hand Routine, you can also just actually deduce quite accurately which hand it’s in. So I mean, I think it does make a difference, and I do think it is… Personally, what I’ve learned so far from going through those routines is just the more phases the better, and the more you can vary the phases, the more fooling the Witch Hand Routine becomes. That’s all I would say. So we’re saying the gimmick may well have a place.
47:25
Yeah, but not in isolation. One of the phases, one of the methods. But the cool thing, yeah I think that’s a good point. I think even if you do lean towards using a gimmick for this routine, it is still good to learn non-gimmicked versions so that you can then cancel out that gimmick version. So if you want to do your first phase, second phase, or any of the phases, using a method that does not require the gimmick, you can set conditions that mean when the spectator is going to think back, and they might think…
47:50
what if he had some kind of way of knowing but then they’re like oh wait but he did this one where like i just imagined i had a coin and there’s no way because it’s an imaginary coin there’s no way he could have known or you know i used i didn’t even use a coin i used like a chess piece or like i used a little i don’t even know like a little piece of paper you know a folded playing card all this kind of thing so yeah i think having that like method layering different methods canceling out each other
48:16
It’s good to have as many different methods as possible in the bag and then you can kind of mix and match. As long as it’s still a… That’s what I think too. As long as it feels consistent to the spectre and it feels like the effects at each time. And it’s not like… crazy different, you know? Yeah. As dissatisfying as that is, I do genuinely think like… three methods is better than one. It’s like as obvious as that sounds, but I think with the Witch Hand routine, what I’m learning is like… There is no best routine.
48:45
But like just in general, the idea of like the witch hand is so strong that when you lay a routines on top of each other, the effects like just becomes inherently better because of that, you know? Yeah. And I think it is really, again, not to like sound too cliche, but I think it really is just about the presentation at the end of the day. This is something that stuck out to me while I was rereading as part of the challenge. Timon Krauss’s excellent book, Witch Hand Method and Philosophy. He has his own like…
49:15
proprietary method and it’s it’s I mean it’s it’s really good it’s definitely like if not it’s like if not my favorite like I don’t even it’s probably I don’t want to spoil the video by saying it’s my favorite but like it’s probably gonna end up being my favorite we’ll see we’ll see though no promises but even all that aside something he mentions in the book is like okay well let’s say even I don’t let’s say for some reason his method stopped working overnight something happened like some reason
49:44
no explanation, just that that method no longer works. His routine, the power of his routine is not in the method, it’s in his presentation of it. And that presentation he could do equally well in a number of different methods. And so, yeah, I think that’s a good, maybe a good point to start wrapping this stuff up on is like, it really is at the end of the day just about the presentation. Like that is what it’s about.
50:12
Yeah, not much else to say apart from that, I guess. Yeah. Honestly, I think like that is a good place to wrap. Like we keep talking, but like I think we’ve said what we want to say. Hopefully you guys have enjoyed this first podcast is a different type of different dynamic with just the two of us. Obviously, like a lot of time we do have guests or we talk all like with three of maybe we’ll do ones where we have us two and like Danny on or whatever. But we wanted to just kind of get back into the role of things. Like Benji said,
50:40
it’s gonna take us a second to kind of like, get back on a get back on the horse, so to speak. But we hope you enjoyed hopefully you got some gems you could take out here I definitely did. So I enjoyed the podcast. So if you guys
51:05
Why did you make that so weird? Why did you have to pause right there?
51:13
I guess I’m just gonna end on that. Thanks for listening Go subscribe. Wait, wait, tell them. Yeah, tell them tell them what to do. Go subscribe to the Daily Magician Subscribe to the YouTube look out for our emails and yeah, where can they find our YouTube? What do we call just search the Daily Magician? YouTube and you’ll find it You can even Google the Daily Magician YouTube. It’ll definitely pop up. So yeah, just go subscribe Yeah, if you have any ideas for us
51:43
in terms of YouTube videos, Witch Hand Routines. Witch Hand Routines is probably a little too late, but we’d still be interested to hear kind of what you think. But yeah, watch out on the YouTube, watch this space. We’re very, very excited for all the ideas that we have moving forward, and we will speak with you guys very soon. But ciao for now. Ciao ciao.
